Lucid dream vs. Astral projection... again

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Jettins \o/
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Lucid dream vs. Astral projection... again

Post by Jettins \o/ » July 16th, 2013, 3:41 am

Sirena Wrote:

I cannot tell any difference. For me lucid dreaming does not exist. It is a contradiction in itself because dreaming is just describing my state of consciousness of being NOT lucid (my subbie is boss, so to speak).

When "projecting" I project my "conscious" (and NOT subconscious) mind into the experience. Wait a minute, hm ... this would make the physical a projection too when I think about it ... Image hmm... it's rather complex ... :?

(I can well tell a difference between ETHERIC projection and ASTRAL projection though. But that would be off-topic now. ;) )

Justin Wrote:

So far, I have found absolutely no differences - none (aside from the process in getting "there"). Anytime that I am aware and functioning without my physical body, I consider myself to be in the non-physical, astral, larger reality, et all. It seems to me that, in the larger reality, it isn't so much about the "place" or the reality as much as it is about our intent and expectations (and beliefs).

The only time that I might tend to use the term "lucid dreaming" is when I become aware in a dream and choose to stay in that particular story or setting. However, even then, I still consider it to be no different than an OBE. I do not think that lucid dreaming is one reality while OBE is another. It seems to be that it all blends together, overlaps, and flows based on our intent.

For me, the experiences are so vast and varying that I hesitate to label them as anything other than experiences in the larger reality. I have never noticed that some things or situations only happen in lucid dreams while others only occur in OBE. Again, it all seems to blend and flow together. I tend to distinguish the experiences in terms of how focused and clear my mind was. A clear and focused mind - free of fear, beliefs, and expectations is everything - our thoughts (both surface and buried) are the propulsion system that drives the experiences.

Another thing that is interesting to consider is that the OBE and lucid dreaming literature support this idea. Robert Waggoner in Lucid Dreaming describes experiences that could have easily come out of any OBE book or blog. Stephen LaBerge in Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming utilizes techniques that are not different than conscious projections via sleep paralysis or the vibrational state. If we could throw all of the various journal stories in to a big pile and erase the information of how each experience began (via a dream or OBE), it woud likely be impossible to tell which ones were lucid dreams and which ones were OBEs.

Now, there are people that might say, "yes, but when I am in a lucid dream, XYZ always happens; yet, while out-of-body, QRS tends to happen." I might argue that such is the result of expectations and beliefs about the experiences. I began having lucid dreams and OBEs spontaneously - long before I had even heard the terms "lucid dreaming" or "OBE." The point being that I never knew that there was supposed to be differences, and therefor never experienced any.

anyway, that is my take from where I am at now. It will no doubt evolve and change.

Good topic.

Chopstixfox wrote:

Lucid dreaming just means that you are aware that your physical body is chilling out asleep on a bed. It implies you have control of your surroundings. Astral Projection implies you're... well... I think as a general look, intentionally exploring the non physical, but to me it's not exactly limited to that. So to me, I guess there's not really a difference besides how technically specific you want to get with the specific words. All part of the great big non physical experiences pot to me! :D

Xanth Wrote:

The general consensus of what "lucid dreaming" means is simply the "how" you get to experience the non-physical... although some people tend to hold way to strongly onto one conviction over another. Like it's life or death or something. LoL

Basically, when someone says they had a lucid dream, what they *tend to mean* is that they fell asleep normally and became consciously aware at some point during the dream they were having.
And when they say they had an Astral Projection, what they *tend to mean* is that they induced that same "lucid dream" experience from a fully conscious state.

The difference between the terms comes directly down to whether you had awareness BEFORE or AFTER you fell asleep. Nobody ever talks about conscious awareness... this was my breakthrough, for myself at least. I tried looking at the experience from a completely different perspective. Not from you having an experience... but you BEING the experience. It changed everything for me. It was the starting point for my "conscious awareness designation system" which I use today. It lead to me discovering that you don't have a lucid dream or an astral projection... instead, you're lucidly aware and astrally aware while experiencing the non-physical.

To me it's so blatantly obvious that I really wonder why so few people have stumbled upon this line of thinking. I think it stems from a fear that people want dreams to be so separate from their waking life that they're willing to hold on so strongly to a lie in order to retain that safety net. I dunno really... but it really does boggle my mind that people still believe these are all COMPLETELY separate experiences.
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Re: Lucid dream vs. Astral projection... again

Post by Jettins \o/ » July 16th, 2013, 3:42 am

Reply by Jettins
Xanth wrote:It lead to me discovering that you don't have a lucid dream or an astral projection... instead, you're lucidly aware and astrally aware while experiencing the non-physical.
Yeah, when I am not being critical about why I am calling an experience a lucid dream or an astral projection experience I like to refer to it as: becoming objectively aware, objectively conscious, or consciously aware in the non-physical.

First of all one would have to establish what Astral projection and lucid dream experiences actually are to even begin trying to distinguish the difference. So I’ll just define it as such:

Lucid dream – perceptual (or based on) thought energy predominantly of the psyche (constricted)

Astral Projection – perceptual thought energy predominantly outside the psyche (expanded)

There are many things to consider that happen during non-physical experiences, such as the changes in psychological states that trigger shifting perceptions. These differences can only be properly made by each individual as no two minds are operating exactly alike (but can be understood with a high degree of personal experience). There are different ways how the shifts in perceptions can occur since not everyone will be living the same inner and out realities. This means that *what reads like a lucid dream can in fact be an astral projection experience and vice versa. We have to look at it from a different angle to know what is happening, an angle that understands and considers what generates the shifts in perception from a constricted into an expanded state.

To me the lucid dream and the astral projection experience have many similarities because the states blend together. However, there are constricted psychological states in which everything around you is predominately originating from our own psyche, and there are expanded psychological states in which what is around you is being predominately sensed and recreated by your inner senses, therefore sustained collectively. Some argue that when objective consciousness is increased, one is in the Astral projection state. But this cannot be completely correct because a lucid dreamer can have a high objective consciousness to not sense and become aware of outer realities, therefore stay involved within the designated parameters of his or her experience (psyche). Or in other words to become objective with the therapeutic "thought forms". So if these two states can blend together, the confusion is the lack of understanding of what is being sensed. When you find the "exit point to the lucid dream" think about what is happening psychologically, this is how you can notice the perceptions expanding into the "astral projection" state in the same way as when you “feel the exit sensations” during the onset of an out-of-body experience.

Xanth mentions about clearing the mind as a requirement for a conscious astral projection, this is great, but have many other people done this within the lucid dream state, was an expanded perception a result? (an increase in perceptional awareness will separate the different states, ex. constricted to expanded). If the person thinks of the lucid dream state as not really existing as something separate, I think this will work well. If the person thinks of the lucid dream and the astral experience as being the same (with the consensus definition), the person might not experience these shifts in perception because the "separation" process wasn't objectively realized. If the person is not thinking of it as constricted or expanded (inner vs. outer) the perceptions just won’t present themselves to be realize. If this is the case, the experiences will have an imperceptible change in flow if static or a similar story-line if active. I am not saying that a changing story-line is universally an AP experience, what this means is that the person runs a greater risk of not knowing what is what and therefore incorrectly concluded the psyche (the person) is not sensing anything different in origin. The realization of their condition in the form of intuition during non-physical experiences just won't come up. Examples of how deceased entities are living "lucid dream" like constricted realities would explain things further. If this is not fully realized experiences become colored by our inner prejudices that come standard with every subtle existence which include our expectations, non-expectations, beliefs, disbeliefs known and unknown. When this is happening becoming unstuck form undesired non-physical story-lines is more difficult for sure. The subconscious or memory gets projected everywhere, it is the perceptional points (or based on points) being referred that may change.

How to avoid this problem of becoming unknowingly stuck?

Ultimately you clean the perceptions, which means you will do so by figuring yourself out in the process.

I don't think anyone in this forum will have a problem with this. I remind the readers that my views aren't meant to be universal.
Xanth wrote:The general consensus of what "lucid dreaming" means is simply the "how" you get to experience the non-physical.
I think the general consensus on what "lucid dreaming" means should be "why" you experienced the non-physical, instead of "how". With this thinking it will sort itself out for sure.
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Re: Lucid dream vs. Astral projection... again

Post by fairyana » July 16th, 2013, 2:59 pm

This is what I'm having a lot of difficulty with. Since I see Lucid Dream and AP as different states awareness of the psyche, I'm waiting to "feel" that shift in perception. In my last attempt I managed to stay focus inside my dream, but my awareness decreased instead of increased (or became expanded beyond the psyche). I still haven't figured out how to clean my perception and I found that saying to myself "I'm outside of my body" while in a lucid dream didn't work for me...

Do I clear my perception by going into my consciousness? I feel I need to be more on hold of my consciousness, let it drift less into what I'm seeing and focus more. What do you think?

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Re: Lucid dream vs. Astral projection... again

Post by Jettins \o/ » July 16th, 2013, 5:06 pm

Yes you can do that. But you can also go into your consciousness while in the physical dimension. There are some days when I'm more in autopilot than others. Those days I think about the different feelings and conversations that I have. This let me know I might be overdoing something.

You can also try to clean your energy before it generates into an undesired perception. I've been doing Kriya Yoga for the past 2.5 which includes pranayama breathing or breath infusion. I've happy to report I've had 6 out-of-body experiences in 3 days. Each morning, and during a nap the same day. There is no doubt in my mind I'm starting to feel consistent benefits. It suppose to help clean out our energy so that we expand instead of contract within our consciousness, it can help to clear our perceptions so it's easier to become objectively aware during non-physical experiences.

I am pretty sure that there are many other practices or behavior that can help as well.
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Re: Lucid dream vs. Astral projection... again

Post by fairyana » July 16th, 2013, 6:50 pm

I know a couple of pranayamas since I've done them before in a Yoga class I took. Is there a specific pranayama for this?

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Re: Lucid dream vs. Astral projection... again

Post by Jettins \o/ » July 17th, 2013, 3:09 pm

Asanas that focus on releasing tension from the upper back, lower back, chest, spine and shoulders. I like to focus on these areas because it's where I normally hold most of my tension. Pranayama breathing is then done during the asana postures. In this case the idea is to learn achieve a deeper of relaxation quicker. Sometimes we might not be aware of which muscles are staying tense until we try it.
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Re: Lucid dream vs. Astral projection... again

Post by fairyana » July 17th, 2013, 4:38 pm

There were a couple of pranayama breathing techniques I used to do. With my right hand I put my index finger on where would be my third eye, and the thumb I use to block one side of the nostril or the other. Then there are variations, for instance, breath in an out from left nostril 5 times, then in and out right nostril 5 times. Then there is the in from left, out from right, then switch. The counting of each breath is done mentally and counting "Ohms". So I'd say to myself "1 Ohmmmmmm, 2 Ohmmmmmm, 3Ohmmmm". Usually it takes me 3 ohms to breathe in and 3 ohms to breathe out. But If I change the counting it'll benefit other things. For instance, breathing out longer than breathing in will calm you and breathing equal parts is invigorating (or something of the sort). So That's why I asked if there's a specific type of counting that you do for astral projection. We can also envision the energy going up and down the chackras, if we can handle envisioning lots of things and counting and breathing at the same time. I heard that one particularly good for AP is to breathe in and focus on the air going down the spine and into to the diaphragm, which is under the lungs, and when you breathe out, focus all the air going from the diaphragm up all the way to the head and going out your nose and envision that your soul is being detached from your body in the process, like it's in your body but not glued to it.

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