OOBEs and dreams. Different phenomena?

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Ssurge
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OOBEs and dreams. Different phenomena?

Post by Ssurge » October 13th, 2011, 3:04 am

OOBEs and dreams. Different phenomena or only different experience?

I have been thinking why the new age stuff still seems to be the big deal and some people do actually claim they are real. People have been saying and believing in the astral, in the astral body, in lower or higher astral planes and so on. Who first came with this idea? Were they experiencing other types of OOBEs in which they had all this stuff or they are just lying to people so that it all sounds harder and people can give up?

As you guys may have noticed I barely use the word Astral and I keep saying there's no higher or lower astral. I say it is you or consciousness. Am I wrong? Are the new age writers wrong? I think both new age and "normal" terms actually describe the same one thing. Let me give you an example. When someone has a very vivid dream, it means they are in the higher astral. When the dream is not so vivid, it is in the lower one. I have been told this before. Also, failed attempts for OOBEs are in the lower astral and the very vivid ones in the higher one. This is what I know so far. Now, what if by "lower and higher astral plane" the people, who were not that "evolved" like us, described the difference in the level of awareness during dreams or OOBEs? I believe this is it. Also, OOBEs, LD's and normal dreams are as well only words to describe the level of awareness you had. The entire phenomena is actually just one thing. The only thing that is different is the level of awareness. By that, everyone would say that in an OOBE you should be very aware, although there are a few in which you are not. Are you sure they are OOBEs anymore? I have had OOBEs which slowly but surely turned into dreams or dreams that turned into OOBEs. It sometimes may be hard to describe an experience you have had because it started off as an OOBE, but and ended up like a dream. What was it then? I am posting this again with some editing:



dreams------vivid dreams----(lucid dreams---)(SP---)OOBE/Wakefulness.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20.
<<-------------------------- level of awareness/lucidity ------------------------->>


I am sure there are people who have mistaken vivid dreams for lucid dreams. This is probably because they were so vivid and in control of them in which they THOUGHT this is what lucid dreaming is about. You have a lucid dream only when you know you are dreaming. You can be as aware as possible, it will still not be a lucid one unless you know you are dreaming. Isn't it disappointing a little? You did whatever you wanted in your dream and you still have not had an LD.

I describe OOBEs/dreams/LD's as "thinking without having a body". Theoretically, If your body was killed during the experience you would still be there without realizing it. This is exactly how it feels. Almost all of my OOBEs have been in or around my apartment and the only thing I could notice was that I was just as normal as I am now. I wasn't any soul, there was no silver cord, it was just I. From here, you can also notice that the separation is just an illusion. There is no actual separation and you do not always need it. We get the position when we get out of the body because of our perception of the physical body. We know we are lying in bed, that's where we should be. However, I have had OOBEs in which I felt I had projected from another side of the room. Also, in my very first experience, I do not remember to have felt any separation at all. I was either next to my bed or in my body. Lately, I have not even had a body in my experiences. I was just I, thinking and creating. You do not need a body in an OOBE. I sometimes feel like I am the world itself. We are just consciousness.

Experience dreams, experience LD's, experience SP and experience OOBES and see if they actually are a different phenomena. Once you are in SP, you are already in the OOBE. In fact "SP" starts before dreaming.

Another way of putting it is what takes over, the subconscious or the conscious. Probably AV people already know this post. :D

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Re: OOBEs and dreams. Different phenomena?

Post by Jettins \o/ » October 14th, 2011, 9:55 pm

Sserg"OOBEs and dreams. Different phenomena or only different experience?

I have been thinking why the new age stuff still seems to be the big deal and some people do actually claim they are real. People have been saying and believing in the astral, in the astral body, in lower or higher astral planes and so on. Who first came with this idea? Were they experiencing other types of OOBEs in which they had all this stuff or they are just lying to people so that it all sounds harder and people can give up?
In my opinion the descriptions of the lower and higher planes, densities, astral bodies, are initial visual and perceptual descriptions of how non-physical realities operate (or learned by reading). These change with more understanding. People have a tendency to copy language, this is done so that they can relate to others, so for me its makes sense that many people will describe it in a similar way, the same language, metaphors for describing visual observations, and so on. The problem of what I've seen is that some get overly critical about the visual phenomena without a real understanding on how and why these visual realities are created (not referring to you serge), thus many believe some things are universally true which is not the case. I understand why this is so,it has to do with how people process new information. The emotional impact creates a lasting effect and comfort from the experiences is generated. A sense of "I am special" follows and then a sense of "I am privileged" which them sometimes determines how information is interpreted, thus in effect making it appear harder when presented to others than what it really is. I believe that this is just fine. To me getting caught up in these types of details is an excuse for not wanting to find out things on my own. The old skeptic saying "prove it to me" will get you.
As you guys may have noticed I barely use the word Astral and I keep saying there's no higher or lower astral. I say it is you or consciousness. Am I wrong? Are the new age writers wrong? I think both new age and "normal" terms actually describe the same one thing. Let me give you an example. When someone has a very vivid dream, it means they are in the higher astral. When the dream is not so vivid, it is in the lower one.
I don't simply believe everyone deserves the right to view and process information the way it feels best for them, I want them too, as it will unfold their inner reality. For me, using the scales of higher and lower astral is an interesting way of describing an effect that I've noticed countless of times, keep in mind it can be called or described in different ways. I do not like to use the terminology "lower astral", and "higher astral" anymore, simply because changes in our state of being (or our state of consciousness), better explains what is visual observed and experienced. My experiences have shown me that purpose, intention and emotion (what fundamentally creates our sense of being), intentional or unintentional (intending to, or not intending to, or driven by?) is what truly unfolds our non-physical experiences and not the "Astral Realm" itself.
I have been told this before. Also, failed attempts for OOBEs are in the lower astral and the very vivid ones in the higher one. This is what I know so far. Now, what if by "lower and higher astral plane" the people, who were not that "evolved" like us, described the difference in the level of awareness during dreams or OOBEs? I believe this is it. Also, OOBEs, LD's and normal dreams are as well only words to describe the level of awareness you had.The entire phenomena is actually just one thing. The only thing that is different is the level of awareness.
I agree with this, tho the level of awareness does not scale the level of 'openness' (subjective interpretation requiring explanation), that is required by consciousness to frequently experience high level guided experiences in my experience. I'll expand on this in other posts.
By that, everyone would say that in an OOBE you should be very aware, although there are a few in which you are not. Are you sure they are OOBEs anymore? I have had OOBEs which slowly but surely turned into dreams or dreams that turned into OOBEs.
For the trigger of understanding it makes sense to me to think about these things, but In my opinion these are semantics we shouldn't be overly concerned about for the reasons I've explained.
It sometimes may be hard to describe an experience you have had because it started off as an OOBE, but and ended up like a dream. What was it then? I am posting this again with some editing:

dreams------vivid dreams----(lucid dreams---)(SP---)OOBE/Wakefulness.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20.
<<-------------------------- level of awareness/lucidity ------------------------->>

I am sure there are people who have mistaken vivid dreams for lucid dreams. This is probably because they were so vivid and in control of them in which they THOUGHT this is what lucid dreaming is about. You have a lucid dream only when you know you are dreaming. You can be as aware as possible, it will still not be a lucid one unless you know you are dreaming. Isn't it disappointing a little? You did whatever you wanted in your dream and you still have not had an LD.
I agree, I am not surprised if it happens to a lot of beginners. Thought it probably helps beginners realize how vivid other states of consciousness can be and this is a great thing :D
I describe OOBEs/dreams/LD's as "thinking without having a body". Theoretically, If your body was killed during the experience you would still be there without realizing it. This is exactly how it feels. Almost all of my OOBEs have been in or around my apartment and the only thing I could notice was that I was just as normal as I am now. I wasn't any soul, there was no silver cord, it was just I. From here, you can also notice that the separation is just an illusion. There is no actual separation and you do not always need it. We get the position when we get out of the body because of our perception of the physical body.
I agree. Questions of time/space, or no time/space in non-physical realities start to surface. If there is no time/space how can we have experience? Don't we need time to create the memory of experience even in non-physical realities? or is it the perception of it? Them questions of what is perception? and what is consciousness? Same rational for space. I'll write much more detail in other posts, I'll will include examples based on observations of my own personal experiences, as not doing so in a topic so complex and filled with subjective experience, is truly lame.
We know we are lying in bed, that's where we should be. However, I have had OOBEs in which I felt I had projected from another side of the room. Also, in my very first experience, I do not remember to have felt any separation at all. I was either next to my bed or in my body. Lately, I have not even had a body in my experiences. I was just I, thinking and creating. You do not need a body in an OOBE. I sometimes feel like I am the world itself. We are just consciousness.

Experience dreams, experience LD's, experience SP and experience OOBES and see if they actually are a different phenomena. Once you are in SP, you are already in the OOBE. In fact "SP" starts before dreaming.

Another way of putting it is what takes over, the subconscious or the conscious.
The incredible life of the of the out-of-body traveler, or better yet, inner know.
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